Victoria Brown (00:00.541)

Hi, welcome to the podcast, Katie. Thank you so much for coming on. When I first saw you talking at an event I went to a of months ago, I think it was, I was really struck by your story. And I thought I have to get you on the podcast because I think you’ve got so much to share and to help empower other women in particular to tell in their stories. So

For people that don’t know you, probably a lot of people out there don’t know you, who, sorry, people, it’s always the intro. I know.

Katey (00:35.822)

This is reassuring. Honestly, Victoria, this is reassuring. I’m feeling more relaxed already. Thank you.

Victoria Brown (00:45.345)

So Katie, for people that don’t know you, can you tell us a bit about you and what you do?

Katey (00:51.498)

So thank you for having me. This is very both nerve wracking and exciting. It’s first podcast I’ve ever done. But yeah, who am I? I’m so Katie Martin and I’m a hostage negotiator in the Metropolitan Police. So I’m also a mum of three children. I live in London with my husband and my three kids and my two cats, one of whom is howling to get out the room at the moment.

I can hear her annoying thing. Yeah, sorry, that was really crap start, wasn’t it? You know, like I’m totally so nervous. my God, I’m not normally nervous. Let me just let this bloody cat out, Victoria.

Victoria Brown (01:26.455)

So, hang on, no, no, no.

Victoria Brown (01:34.583)

Okay.

Katey (01:45.896)

You must use the animal thing, it must drive you mad.

Victoria Brown (01:49.451)

No, we get all the animals on this. And we’re coaching the dogs, we get the dogs walking past the cats. We had a rescue dog the other day, which was quite nice. So you could you went. So you said hostage negotiator there as though it was a totally like run of the mill job. But I’m sure to a lot of people, they would be like, what? That’s quite a job. So what does that involve in your day to day?

Katey (02:16.504)

So I came into negotiation about nine years ago after 20 years of uniform policing predominantly and it just, it gripped me. It got under my skin and it’s more of a life changing thing really. So in London, most of our negotiations are with people in crisis. They’re probably in the 90%.

So my daily job is, I’m lucky, I’m a full-time negotiator. There’s not many of us in the UK that are. So I get to do it as a full-time job and that doesn’t mean that I’m always out there negotiating with people. That’s part of it. I also teach negotiations. So a big part of my job now is training. So training new negotiators. But I’m also the head of training for the UK for counter-terrorism negotiations.

The other specialism to my role is that I teach negotiators to be able to negotiate with people committing an act of terrorism. So there’s sort of a double facet. But it’s a weird one. I guess I kind of take it for granted the term, but in essence, it’s about being a communicator and it’s about teaching police officers to be able to communicate.

with people that are generally, my world anyway, very change resistant or experiencing behaviors that can ultimately enter ending their life or ending the life of another person. So being able to communicate at that level when I guess the chips are really high, know, it’s life or death, is a different kind of communication to what we’re used to.

as humans. people have got to keep a clear head and you’ve got to be able to sort of make really good decisions. But mostly it’s about listening. And so that’s what it comes down to. It’s about being able to listen and we’re not taught in life how to listen, right? We’re taught how to talk.

Victoria Brown (04:27.935)

I love that so much. If you knew how much I loved that thing about listening. I actually wrote an article for the Metro last week or the week before exactly about that. Why don’t they teach people to listen properly at school? Because it’s one of the most important things that we can all learn.

Katey (04:45.166)

Absolutely, it’s the bedrock of us as humans and yet we don’t teach it in schools. We reward kids for being able to talk. I went to a good school, we had elocution lessons even, I’m trying to laugh at that now, but we were rewarded for our ability to be able to speak, but no one ever taught me how to listen. And subsequently, as a…

when I look back to what I was like when I was younger, I was probably quite, quite, you know, I was going to say gob on a stick. That’s probably, but it was all about almost an arrogance of just talking, talking at people probably. And yeah, so to be able to flip that and to know what I know now, if I could impose that on my younger self, I think I’d have probably been a better person, but you’re not taught.

You’re not tall.

Victoria Brown (05:45.515)

the emphasis is put on the talker as being the person with the power almost, the person, you know, you’ve got to prove yourself all the time, you’re taught that’s the way it is. Actually, this huge power in sitting back and listening.

Katey (06:00.566)

And it’s interesting point you make because one of the things that we teach our negotiators is the power in actually being subservient when someone wants to dominate you. And the interesting way that we all are as people is that naturally we don’t always like to be dominated, particularly in the workplace. So we kind of try and dominate back and then we try and out dominate the dominator.

And it’s a really bad conversation. And actually, people, if we realized that our power was in actually sitting back and being subservient and just exploring and being curious as to what that other person’s got to say, it would be a better conversation and relationships would be better.

Victoria Brown (06:49.1)

Absolutely, 100%. You need to go around to all the schools and teach them how to do that.

Katey (06:53.838)

But it’s interesting, isn’t it? Because even the word subservient, in my head, as I grew up, that was a negative. That was seen as a negative. It was seen as a weakness. Actually, what I know now is that that’s a strength. It’s totally flipped in my head, even that one word. But I’d say most people would see that as a negative. But actually, it’s quite hard to be subservient.

Good subservient.

Victoria Brown (07:24.789)

Yeah, so in your day-to-day role you must see, you must experience some really tricky things and traumatic things. How do you deal with that?

Katey (07:35.918)

Well, that is a good question. And I’d like to say, well, but that’s not always the case. I used to pride myself that I had this box in my head that you could put things into and shut it. And then you could just operate as a normal person. And as long as the box was, you know, everything was in that box, it was fine. But I learned the hard way that that is really unhealthy. And it was when I was

I remember it very clearly. was my eldest sister, I’ve got two sisters, my eldest sister, her son was doing a musical recycle at the school he was at and my mom and I had gone along to support her and we were all stood there looking at this stage of these youngsters singing and it was wonderful. And all I saw when I looked at that stage, out of those 20 kids, my head said, by the end of the summer, one of them will be dead.

And that was purely my box opening. And to say I cried is an understatement. So my mum’s looking at me going, what the hell? My sister is like freaked out, what’s going on? This should be all about my son. This should all be about Angus. And I was just in pieces. And I couldn’t stop crying and I couldn’t stop it. I had to have, I had some counselling after that through a…

wonderful lady that worked with us as negotiators and we have access to her because of the trauma that we see. And she was really clear. She said to me, the trouble is with that theory you’ve got about your box is that you are not in control of when that’s going to open. So you have to deal with what’s in it. You have to talk about it and you have to process it. Cause if you don’t, it will just open when you’re least expecting it.

And of course it had. So I think policing’s hard. You deal with the most horrific things in people’s lives. You walk that walk with them. And I’ve always, that’s a part of it, that it sounds very odd, but I’ve always found very rewarding. I feel very honored to be invited into someone’s house at their worst time.

Katey (10:00.064)

and be able to be some kind of comfort to them through being able to give a horrible experience, some kind of structure. And you touch their life, you leave, but I never forget, I never forget the families that I’ve sat with, you know, who are grieving their lost kids or what have you. And that has always really affected me. In fact, when I have my children, I found it much harder.

to do my job as a frontline officer than I did before I had kids, massively. I used to be able to cope a lot better before I was a mum.

Victoria Brown (10:40.545)

dealing with that stuff that’s in the box, do you think that has helped make you a better negotiator when you were talking to people that are in trauma as well?

Katey (10:48.78)

Yeah, definitely. I’m very open now about talking about any of that. I think there’s a real power in self-disclosure. Certainly when I started on my negotiation journey, we weren’t as good at self-disclosure. And what I’ve realized over the years and certainly how we train now is that there’s real power in self-disclosure because if I’m negotiating with someone and I’m seeking…

almost their story. I’m asking them what brought them, what brought them to the edge of that bridge, what brought them to the rooftop. It would be really quite unfair if I wasn’t willing to disclose something about me. And I think you don’t make emotional bonds with people and you can’t get to a level of true empathy unless you have some kind of shared cloud that you’re under.

And it doesn’t mean that you have to have been through what they’ve been through because you never will have, even if it’s similar. But to be able to just sit with someone and just take some of their pain is really important. And if that involves sharing a bit of you, then that’s really important too.

Victoria Brown (12:04.673)

Well think you sound like you’re doing an amazing job, Katie, so I’m sure everyone out there is really thankful that there are people like you who are doing that job because if there wasn’t, where would we be?

Katey (12:17.378)

Yeah, I mean, it’s, I do think with our blue light services, we’re going through a hard time at the moment. And it’s policing something I’m really proud of. I’ve had a great 30 years in policing, but it’s hard. The press are, know, very harsh on us and, you know, sometimes rightly so and sometimes not, but.

It does get to you sometimes.

Victoria Brown (12:49.057)

Yeah, I think it’s sometimes easy to forget that there’s a uniform, particularly when people have a uniform, that there’s a real person behind it.

Katey (12:55.502)

Yeah, thankfully my uniform days are behind me. But yeah, definitely. used to I never got used to that feeling actually of being. I can remember the very first time I stepped out of the police station wearing my brand new shiny uniform without an instructor. And it was so petrifying because you felt like everyone was looking at you. Now, I’m sure they weren’t. But I just felt like

Like I was in this goldfish bowl of life where everyone was just eyes on. I mean, looking back, I’d probably had a skirt on. I’d have had these skinny little legs coming out of this big A-line skirt. I’d have looked utterly horrific. Like I had a couple of golf clubs, big DM boots on my feet. But the weird thing was is walking out with my colleague for the first time, we worked at Brixton.

And we literally had got one metre out of the back gate. In fact, I don’t think we were barely out of the back gate when a convertible car drove through a no entry up the side of the police station. And I remember looking at my colleague going, well, we’ve got to stop him. He’s done a no entry. So I kind of stepped out into the road and sort of did that sort of really stop. Realised as I did say that the guy who was driving had a gun to his head.

That was a real, that was my birth to policing Brixton. It was like, okay. So my first arrest was for an armed carjacking and resulted in some long foot chase and some going down for 18 years. So it was a birth to what it was gonna be like in the police. There was no such thing as a normal stop in Brixton.

Victoria Brown (14:41.217)

Wow. Wow, that was quite a start. how would you describe, let’s talk about your origin story. So how would you describe younger Katie? Did you always want to be in the police? Because that’s 30 years ago, I’m guessing that’s probably quite an unusual thing, particularly for a girl to want to do that.

Katey (15:01.078)

Yeah, I think I have always been a bit of a rebel. don’t know. I think, yeah, the younger me, gosh, I’ve always been massively driven by friendships. Friendships are huge to me. Even my mum now laughs about how I always needed a friend. And one of my oldest friends, Jo, her and I used to

dress up when we were about four or five. And ironically, we had this ridiculous dressing up books full of tat and she used to always dress up as a nurse and I always used to dress up as a police officer, policeman actually, because we only had, they only had policeman’s hats, you know, in those days. And I’m sure probably looking back, I was probably the cop because that’s probably all that fitted because I was twice the size of her. interesting enough, she’s ended up as a nurse and I’ve…

I’ve ended up as a police officer. So maybe it was the dressing up boxes for I’m not sure. But I knew from a very young age that I couldn’t do a desk job. don’t know. The police had always seemed a bit intoxicating and exciting. I was a big Juliet Bravo fan. I’m not going to lie. I think my biggest sort of turn towards policing though was I did work experience when I was 16. We all had to do work experience, I’m sure.

you probably have that, I think they still do, don’t they? And I managed to get my work experience with the police. And I went to a school where most people ended up at solicitors firms or what have you. So when they came back after two weeks and spoke about how they’d done filing, I’d been blue lighting around the Met for two weeks. So for me, it was just like, woohoo, I was hooked. Yeah.

Victoria Brown (16:51.455)

Yeah, you can’t beat that. mean, filing is never going to beat rushing around in the blue light.

Katey (16:55.104)

No, no, yeah, yeah, I think I just thought this is great, this is for me.

Victoria Brown (17:03.425)

Did you ever have any, when you first started, did you ever have any kind of misgivings or any kind of thoughts about whether it was the right path given that there was, there is, it really is a man’s world, and specifically was then. Did you, does that ever worry you? Or did the, did you ever, you know, get worried that it might be too much excitement? Never, really.

Katey (17:27.278)

Never, never, not once, not once. can honestly say there’s never been a day where I haven’t loved my job. I’ve never been someone who’s dreaded going into work. I’ve had the best career and I never looked back from the moment I walked through the gates of Hendon, I never looked back. Now I think actually the female thing,

It made me more determined. So actually I think that that was a driver for me to be that person that could go in and be the woman in the man’s world and survive it and crack it and do it well and bring me to it. It’s never been something that’s put me off. If anything, it’s probably driven me.

think.

Victoria Brown (18:27.147)

what were those experiences like as a woman in a man’s world?

Katey (18:33.102)

It’s been hard, know, that I think it’s changed a lot as I’ve gone through my career. I know when I started the first team I was on, was probably four females out of about 30 of us. And I was petrified of them. You’d think that there would be female…

you know, collaboration and it wasn’t like that at all. The guys took me under their wing to protect me from the females. You know, it was really, I was petrified. One of them, she had a police issue handbag and she carried two things in it, a brick and a lipstick. But I think, yeah, I, it’s, I’ve always tried to stay true to.

who I am, which hasn’t always been easy. And there’s been times when I’ve looked back and thought, I drifted at that point. But I’ve always been true to my feminine side. People sometimes say, well, people have always said, you don’t look like a policewoman. I’m like, what does a policewoman look like? You know, really? But yeah, there’s been, in 30 years, there’s been so many different…

experiences of being a female in a man’s world, in my world. And I think I haven’t always chosen the easiest path because, for example, I decided to go into the riot police that we call it the territorial support group, the TSG. And that was always going to be very male orientated. But it’s interesting when you look at what led you to these things, because

I didn’t naturally gravitate towards thinking I want to be in the TSG wearing a baby-gown, running around with a shield, having fire bombs thrown at me and scaffold poles. And that just came about through being at Brixton for so long that I thought I have to leave. It was hardcore policing in Brixton. was so much fun, but it was so hard as well. And the…

Katey (20:46.478)

at the time when I went to the senior officer to say I’ve got to get out of here. He literally just picked up the phone and said, Yeah, yeah, yep. She’s a she’s a nightmare. She’s pain in the ass. Yeah, Monday, she’ll be with you Monday. And he put the phone down. I said, he said, you’re going to TSG on Monday. And I went, No, no, no, no, sir. Sorry. No, you’ve got me all wrong. This I’m going to break a nail. This isn’t this isn’t going to work. And was like, Katie, you will love it. And

And I did, so there I went. But it was tough as well, so although I loved it, it was hard. I was a sergeant at that point, and my unit was mainly males. I hadn’t been in public order policing before that, whereas most people who then come back to the TSG as a sergeant have been. So it was a birth of fire, a massive birth of fire.

I was the only female sergeant. There was one other female sergeant in the south of London at the time. And she was in the place where I worked too. And I’d quite often find her in tears in the locker room. In fact, I don’t think there was a time where she wasn’t. So she was having a harder time than me, but my unit was great. I was lucky. I had some really good team members that really looked out for me. And the guys were…

you know, help you with your shield, because you had to do these, you had to do a thousand meter shield run with a long shield. They weigh a ton. I mean, the bruising on your arm from the bar that you used to hold it. But it was down in Graves End in our training facility down there, which is the windiest place in the South of England. So when you’re carrying a long perspex shield, it’s like a sail.

So you turn the corner on this thousand metre run and the wind gets it. And seriously, there were times where I thought I was going to take off like Mary Poppins. And one of the guys would just gently just be lifting the rear of the shield up just to sort of help. Because, you know, a lot of the guys on my unit were with sort of six foot, if not more. So for them, they can hold a shield and it will be off the ground. But for some of the female officers,

Katey (23:13.314)

who were maybe five, four. The shield’s bigger than them, but it’s the same shield. There’s not a shield for women. So it’s harder to do the job. It’s been harder in a lot of ways. When we first got body armour, wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t really, well, it wasn’t female body armour. And I remember when I used to sit down in the car, mine would come up over my face like a turtle. So I’d look utterly ridiculous. Plus I couldn’t see anything.

Honestly, yeah, so even the uniform was ridiculous really when you think about it and don’t even get me started on my trousers and what have you because they are just, they’ve never been designed for women. I don’t know who designs police uniform but it’s never been a female obviously.

Victoria Brown (23:44.661)

Not very practical.

Victoria Brown (24:05.345)

That’s really interesting because it sounds like from what you’re saying it’s more the kind of the physicality of being a police of a woman. The physicality of being a female police officer that’s the hard thing not people’s expectations of you as a woman.

Katey (24:21.88)

think it’s a bit both really. mean, the physical side of it, the way that they, when I joined the fitness test that you had to do was so ridiculous that they, that you had to do press ups was as part of it. And they, they measured the length of your arms and your height to work out, they obviously had a chart to work out how many press ups you had to do.

to pass the fitness test. Right, I must have the most ridiculously long arms and short body or something. Anyway, my algorithm spat out that I had to do twice the number of press ups in any of the men that I was with on that to pass the same, the same test to get into the police. I mean, ridiculous, they’ve changed it now, thankfully, but.

Victoria Brown (24:58.125)

you

Katey (25:19.104)

Yeah, the physical side of it, that it is the same for the females and the males. And I do think that that, you know, it’s much like the military, that’s tough, because you can miss out, you can lose out on women in some really key roles, because they can’t reach the bar for the fitness. And I think we miss a trick there, because there’s so many more skills that people bring to the party than

than just fitness, but obviously you do have to be able to run around with, you know, in the kit. So I don’t know what the answer is, but yeah, it’s got better.

Victoria Brown (25:57.463)

Yeah, yeah, I’m guessing a large part of why you’ve been able to keep going and you’ve been so successful is because you’ve dealt with those inner stories that you that we all tell ourselves in in a mostly positive way. I know you’ve talked about the box, but I think it sounds like you have been more positive in your outlook. mean, how important do you think it is to acknowledge the inner stories that we tell ourselves and

How do you get around that?

Katey (26:29.41)

So I think that inner stories can be both a blessing and a curse because if we listen to our positive inner stories then that’s good for us, right? But our brains aren’t wired that way and we will naturally go to the negative automatic thoughts. so I think once I can remember, I’m lucky I have a fantastic…

psychologist who works, who I work with, Jed Bales, and he has opened my mind over the last 10 years to knowing and understanding so much more about how the brain works. And he talks a lot about negative automatic thoughts, gnats. And I always have this thing, you you have  twat the gnats away because they will be stronger. They’ll be

for one positive story that you have about yourself, there’ll be 10 negatives in your head just pushing forwards, elbowing their way to the front. And those stories, especially, I don’t know whether it’s a female thing, but we’re really self-depreciating. I worked with a guy that had a huge effect on me when I was a sergeant and did safe and abled policing, which was just wonderful to me. That’s the bedrock of policing.

Tim Garlett, who’s just wonderful and he kind of taught me to take myself less seriously and he was great fun to work with and it made me a better officer for sure. I think I’d probably been hiding behind a lot of who I was. But yeah, I mean, I think one of the best books that I read once was

the Chimp Paradox by Steve Peters. I don’t know if you’ve read it, those, the chimp brain is so strong, right? And I think once you know that you’ve got to control that part of your brain, it helps because they’ll just hijack you, you know? So yeah. And also it helps that I teach it. I…

Katey (28:46.592)

I teach about your type one thinking and your type two brain and how your type one brain will just try and hijack. So you’ve got to really try and anchor yourself to the truth.

Victoria Brown (28:58.721)

through the work you do it must kind of reinforce that learning as well so you kind of feel that you’re not alone.

Katey (29:05.302)

Yeah. And that’s another thing that led me to negotiation actually that I love about negotiation is that it’s never a, it’s always a team sport. So you don’t ever negotiate on your own. You’re always with, we always have a number two negotiator with us. They don’t speak. They’re just as a coach, a support. And when you’re negotiating with someone who’s

making a decision between life or death, either for them or someone else, it’s really important to have that human touch. The power of human touch is huge. just that, that knowing that there’s someone just who’s got you when you’re really at a very stressful point is, is really comforting. So yeah, I’ve always enjoyed being around people. So it’s natural, I suppose, I’d have

gone into policing where you work as teams.

Victoria Brown (30:06.977)

That’s really interesting insight actually, because I think so many of us, our only experience of that kind of situation is from a film, right? And I’m not sure that that is the kind of the feeling that you get from a film when you’re watching someone do that role.

Katey (30:20.558)

Yeah, everyone away, you know, Samuel L Jackson, isn’t it? The negotiator 321. Yeah, it’s not quite as quite as it’s, it’s a funny thing, though. I mean, I had one recently, and it was a, you know, a lady on a bridge and she, she went to jump and we just both, both myself and the other negotiator just automatically sort of went and to get her to hold her. And it’s just that inner

Victoria Brown (30:23.885)

You

Katey (30:50.112)

in a sort of human urge to save life that’s in us all really, you know.

Victoria Brown (30:59.775)

Yeah, it must be so amazing when there’s a positive outcome, but it must be so difficult when there’s not, because we know it’s not always the case.

Katey (31:10.316)

Yeah, it’s hard to come back from a call out where you walk back into life that’s normal. You you’ll come, you go through this journey over a period of hours, usually hours, some somewhere in London, and then, you know, you’ve blue lighted it there, you’ll be doing this thing, and then you’ll come back and you’re a mum, you step through the door and someone’s saying, mum, have you washed my trousers?

you know, mom, if you’ve done this, there’s a cat being fed and it’s really grounding. You know, you come back in and it’s like, yeah, actually, that wasn’t normal. This is normal. Yeah, that’s always quite hard.

Victoria Brown (32:00.055)

So in terms of stories then, do you ever use storytelling in your role? Is that something that you would use a skill?

Katey (32:08.084)

Yeah, I think in training definitely, the power of a story is huge, right? I mean, I’ve been through more mandatory training than I can poke a stick at and most of it has not been good, let me tell you. And the ones that stick in your head are the ones where the trainers tell a story, they bring it to life, they bring the training to life through either learned experience or

doesn’t matter but they tell a story and I think the power of a story in the learning environment is huge and shouldn’t be underestimated. It embeds deep neurological pathways so people will remember the training if you can link it to a story. So I think definitely the trainers who I admire are ones who are good storytellers and who use their experience to

you know, to really enhance the learning for the students. And one of the roles that I do is I’m a suicide first aid instructor with another colleague who’s also a friend of mine and probably one of the best trainers I’ve ever worked with. He’s fantastic. And he’s a really good storyteller. He’s Irish, so that helps because he just has this wonderful way. And the students just hang off his every word and they just

go on this journey. And a topic that should be depressing is not. Everyone comes out of a day’s training feeling really buoyed up and liberated. And we use our negotiation, our experiences to weave through the training to bring it to life. So yeah, in answer to that question, storytelling is where it’s at.

Victoria Brown (33:58.798)

That’s so interesting to hear and I love the fact that not only did the stories make the training memorable, but they actually changed people’s emotions around a topic.

Katey (34:07.776)

Yes, yes, definitely. And when you start telling your stories as well, it encourages people in the students to share and then you hear you find out fantastic stuff about people. And it enhances the learning for everyone. It’s always a two way, so it should be shouldn’t it a two way thing. I think the chalk and talk days are long gone, thankfully.

But I just think back to schooling, if we’d have had teachers who taught through storytelling, I can’t help but think that we’d have been more engaged in the subjects. I history, history, I hated history, but I watched my kids grow up with horrible histories. And I think I would have loved history. Why wasn’t my history like that?

Victoria Brown (35:01.453)

Yeah, because it’s story, his story is his story. Yeah, amazing. Yeah, and so true. And I think, well, I think now it’s probably because teachers aren’t allowed to teach through stories more than anything else. But that’s a different, a different topic for a different day. So you must you’ve done you’ve had the most amazing career, Katie, which you keep

Katey (35:03.478)

Yeah, yeah, stories, yeah.

Katey (35:12.891)

yeah, possibly.

Victoria Brown (35:25.771)

saying how grateful you are for and you’re obviously full of gratitude for it, which I think is part of the reason why you handle it so well. But you must have done some amazing things. What’s been your biggest pinch me moment in your life so far?

Katey (35:40.152)

So, my biggest pinch me moment, gosh, I’ve had a lot, which sounds really arrogant, I’m lucky. I think I’ve just learned to be really grateful as well, and so there’s lots, but the biggest one, and the one that stands out, was meeting Nelson Mandela. And that was also a very weird pinch me moment, because I was…

Fairly young in service, I was still a probationer, so I was still wet behind the ears. Nelson Mandela was coming to visit Brixton and it was huge. You can imagine it was huge. The community were going mad for this. The policing side of it at the time had advised him not to walk around. Not because he’d be in danger through people hating him. People loved him far too much and we were just worried he’d just get…

completely just swamped. But Nelson Mandela being Nelson Mandela said, no, this is Brixton. It’s really iconic for the black community. I want to go and walk around. So we had to put on this huge policing operation. And I was stood on Atlantic Road, which was all buried off.

And we’d had this briefing and we were very clearly told that you do not take your eyes off the crowd. You watch the crowd at all times. You do not take your eyes off them. So I’m stood there looking at the crowd, scanning the crowd, scanning the crowd. And then suddenly I realised that Nelson Mandela is stood next to me and now King Charles is stood to his right. And I just…

I was just overwhelmed with this. my goodness, Nelson Mandela is actually stood next to me. And the next thing I’m looking at the crowd and this guy with a huge boa constrictor arrives in my section of the crowd typically, and the whole crowd just breaks its banks. Everyone freaks. Now this guy was part of Brixton culture. Like we knew him. He was just this, this eccentric guy that carried an eight foot boa constrictor around with him as you do.

Katey (37:59.234)

But it wasn’t the moment to bring the boa constrictor out. Yeah, it was not the moment. The crowd broke the banks, broke the barriers. The first thing I saw was the soles of Nelson Mandela’s feet as he was launched horizontally into a car that seemed to arrive out of nowhere. I saw the protection officer’s gun and I was like, and there’s somewhere in the press, some really funny photo of me literally fighting with the crowd.

Nelson Mandela horizontally going into a car and being, yeah, so that was probably my biggest pinch moment.

Victoria Brown (38:37.131)

I was not expecting you to say a snake there.

Katey (38:41.586)

Only in Brixton is all I’ll say. Only in Brixton. was the most fascinating place to place.

Victoria Brown (38:45.997)

All the…

Victoria Brown (38:49.453)

photos of that.

Katey (38:51.178)

It’s somewhere there’s a photo in the press and I still haven’t been able to find it but yeah it was just it was just awesome yeah.

Victoria Brown (38:52.461)

you

Victoria Brown (39:01.053)

Yeah, I wonder if King Charles remembers that moment.

Katey (39:04.334)

Well, the weird thing is, is that my sister, my eldest sister is very religious and they used to live in South Africa and the church that they go to, they had this guy come over from South Africa and she rang me and she said, Katie, we’re getting this guy over from South Africa. He’s coming to talk. And he was Nelson Mandela’s protection officer. And he was…

with him when he did his walk around in Brixton. So do you want to come and listen? Well, I listened to his talk and it was really fascinating because he talked about that moment and I didn’t know he was going to talk about that moment but he talks about it from his perspective as a protection officer who was actually, you know, there to protect Nelson Mandela. So it was really nice to sort of hear it from the alternative perspective and

and what happened afterwards as well. And he says that what he remembers about that moment is that he was in the car behind Mandela and the road was just littered with shoes where people had run after this great man with such gusto that they’d lost their shoes. And he said that his memory is just the road, the Atlantic road covered in shoes, which I don’t remember, but yeah.

Victoria Brown (40:24.877)

That’s incredible. That’s the incredible thing about hearing a story from different perspectives, isn’t it? Because you just like everyone picks up on different things because of their own experiences. Yeah, amazing. Such a story. And I was going to also ask you what your weirdest work story was, but I think that probably covers both.

Katey (40:28.896)

Yes, yes, yes.

Katey (40:34.902)

Yeah, same incident but different memories.

Katey (40:43.406)

Yeah, and I think it’s got to be meeting my husband in a crack house. I’m not sure there’s many people that can say that they met their husband in a crack house. And it was in his speech at our wedding, and I think half the room kind of looked at each other and went, what’s the crack house, dear? And the other half were just like,

Victoria Brown (40:52.788)

I

Victoria Brown (41:10.056)

So talk me through what happened.

Katey (41:13.038)

gosh. I had been doing I’d had this crack house under observation for a long time, quite some time, and was gathering enough evidence to do a warrant on it. And Ian, my husband was was on a different team to me at Brixton. I was on a drugs unit at the time, and he was he was on a response team. And it was a very busy crack house. And at the time, there was like a huge

drugs problem that we were struggling with. And what they’d done is they’d arrested someone coming away from the crack house who had had drugs on them. So the law gives them the, you know, they’ve got the power to then search where that person’s just been. But of course, what he didn’t realize, what they didn’t realize is that I had the place under observation. So I shot out of my…

observation point, my covert observation point, and he still remembers the first thing that I said to his sergeant at the time, which was, Dave, what have you done?

Katey (42:21.006)

So yeah, that was how we met and yeah, we worked together for quite a long time actually and didn’t get together for years but yeah.

Victoria Brown (42:35.181)

I was going to ask did you know as soon as you crossed out you No you didn’t know!

Katey (42:38.926)

No, no, our eyes met across the crack pipes and the teeling, the mould up the walls. No, it wasn’t quite that love at first sight thing. It was a slow burn. yeah, 18 years on. Yeah. So obviously some strength in meeting in such circumstances.

Victoria Brown (42:48.941)

you

Victoria Brown (42:58.573)

There we go.

Victoria Brown (43:03.859)

What story, what a story. So you talk a lot about gratitude and you’ve been so lucky for the things that have happened to you and I’m sure that a lot of that comes down to your personal values. Have you ever sat down and thought about your personal values and what they are?

Katey (43:08.814)

Good.

Katey (43:25.182)

now this was, this is, this is such a good question for me, and one that you’ll probably regret answering because you won’t be able to asking because you won’t be able to shut me up. personal values are, are hugely about what I teach. So we actually teach a whole lesson on values and beliefs. And one of the biggest points of about being a negotiator is that you must know yourself. So we do a whole teach a whole exercise on people.

understanding what their own values are. Because if we don’t know what our values are, then we can’t really account for our behaviors because our values are what motivate our behavior. If we don’t unpick what our values are, then we won’t have control over our behavior. And it’s my favorite lesson actually.

If I had one slide when I was training, it would be the iceberg. And I know that it’s a real sort of like, God, the iceberg. But for me, it encompasses everything about communication, about who we are, about knowing ourselves. And I always, if I can, get my students to do an exercise where they draw an iceberg and they write what they allow the world to see at the tip. And then more importantly,

they take a deep dive into what’s underneath, their values and beliefs are. And it’s a really touching lesson. And I think it really starts to make people understand why they are like they are. I was teaching out in Asia and there was, we did that exercise with the students and

we always sort of invite, does anyone want to come up and talk about what they’ve, what’s on their paper, what’s their iceberg? And it’s a really good icebreaker, actually, excuse the pun. But so this chap stood up and he spoke about his iceberg. He spoke about what he allows his colleagues to see, bearing in mind that the room was 20 of his colleagues. And he spoke about, you know, he’s a police officer, he’s

Katey (45:50.156)

his, you know, his proud of that and everything that he allows the world to see. But underneath his iceberg was his motivation, his values and beliefs. And it was so embedded in his mother, who had been a really strong influence on his life. And he spoke about how he had become a police officer to make her proud because she was dying and she’d been in a coma.

and he went through his training, sat by her bed, well there wasn’t a dry eye in the place. Everyone was just in pieces, but it was a really good sort of example of how those 20 colleagues thought they knew him. They didn’t know him at all. Because actually what motivated his behaviour was all these deep values of, you know, respect and family and…

you know, family bonds. yeah. So absolutely. And I think my values really do. I mean, I wear them on my sleeve. They’re everything. When I realized what they were, it made sense. You know, my values of fairness, wisdom, friendship, family, trust, security. And that massively

is my motivation for who I am. if I don’t understand that, then how can I be, you know, it’s everything, isn’t it? I always think if people took more time to understand what’s underneath people’s icebergs, we’d be better people because we show so little to the world, don’t we? And yet people are fascinating. And I love to…

try and find that. I think that’s what we want on Negotiators to be curious. We need them to not see the criminal, the terrorist, the person who wants to kill themselves. We need them to see underneath that, what drove them, who are they, what makes a 24-year-old guy from East London?

Katey (48:08.064)

strap a knife to his arm, get in a car and drive it into people in Borough Market. You know, what drives, because there’s a person under there. No one’s born a terrorist. No one’s born bad. What’s their motivations? What’s their values and beliefs? And that’s the difference between the negotiator and an untrained negotiator is that we’re seeking their story. We’re being curious about that.

Yeah, I think I used to, you know, we used to at school you’re taught to debate, you’re taught to argue, right? I mean, I remember there being debating societies. And I think all you’re doing really is just trying to ram your opinion down someone else’s throat. Actually, where do people’s opinions come from? That’s what interests me. I always say to people, next time you find yourself verbally sparring with someone,

change your tactic instead of trying to enforce your point, be curious about theirs. Where did it come from? Because it will have come from the underneath of their iceberg, their lived experience. And you might actually find some empathy for it if you try and understand.

That was a bit of long answer, wasn’t it?

Victoria Brown (49:30.157)

so much. No, I love that. I love it so much because it’s exactly one of the first things I do with my coaching clients is to help them understand themselves and help their team understand them. Because if we understand that, if we’re not understanding those things, we can’t understand their motivations. So even on a, you know, obvious I can understand on how, you know, on the kind of crime situation that was going to be even more important to understand somebody’s motivations. But even on a normal

everyday level. When I found out my values a couple of years ago, just made so much sense of everything.

Katey (50:03.91)

so you realize why you’re like you are, right? So how is it we’re not doing that exercise with our kids in school? It’s crazy. And when I look back, I mean, it’s slightly Freudian, but when you do look back, if you go really deep sort of into the sea bed, as it were. So when I look back at my childhood and the way I was brought up, I know why my values are based in

Victoria Brown (50:06.921)

Yeah, yeah. I know.

Katey (50:31.48)

friendship and fairness and honesty. mean, my mum couldn’t, you could never lie. You know, she was just really, so I’ve grown up with my kids saying, don’t lie, you know, don’t lie. And it’s, it just follows through, doesn’t it? And I think, you know, I was lucky, I had a wonderful sort of childhood and my dad was a proper real life action man.

I think that, you know, partly when I look back, that’s probably what sort of gave me an adrenaline, having an adrenaline-fuelled childhood is clearly what has made me seek an adrenaline-fuelled job. So it’s all his fault. But I absolutely had him on a pedestal. I thought he was absolutely fantastic. And he, you know, he did, we did things as kids that other kids weren’t doing, like abseiling down the back of the house at the weekend.

he everything was extremes with him, you know, he he learned to fly, but he couldn’t just leave it that he was doing acrobatics, aerobatics, loop the loops. And if I could have been in the plane with him, I would have. So I absolutely can sort of route back to where I needed that sort of more adrenaline kick in my my my career, I think. It’s all his fault. Yeah.

Victoria Brown (51:53.515)

Yeah.

Katey (51:55.81)

But he was a great storyteller and he is a great storyteller, interestingly enough. And I still love listening to his stories.

Victoria Brown (52:07.877)

So rewarding, isn’t it, going back and kind of explaining everything and thinking, and I actually haven’t done the iceberg thing. I love the iceberg, but I’ve never actually written my iceberg. So now it’s made me think that’s what I need to go and do. Yeah.

Katey (52:19.874)

Yeah, yeah, do it. It’s really fascinating. And I think, again, it comes back to self-disclosure when I’m teaching that lesson. we do it bearing in mind we’re teaching negotiators to negotiate with someone who’s committing an act of terrorism. So we’re trying to get them to understand who they are before we even take that next step with them. Because unless you know who you are, you will not…

you need to be able to be able to empathize and you’ve got to know what your triggers are. And we’ve all got them, right? Things will trigger and they’ll be quite often from our values and beliefs. And if we haven’t dealt with that and explored it, then it’s going to come out in our behavior. And that can really affect empathy. So if we want to be better and more empathetic people,

then we really do need to sort of have a look at who we are, I think. Yeah.

Victoria Brown (53:21.291)

yeah  stuff that we always shy away from for some reason it’s like

Katey (53:25.95)

Yeah, don’t we just? Don’t we just? It’s, it’s, yeah, yeah, we do. And actually, we shouldn’t. It can be painful. Some people, you know, don’t like doing it. But I think it’s important to do it to really sort of understand why we behave like we do. If we want to change any behaviors in ourselves, then that’s the route to do it. So we have to work out what’s motivating that.

Victoria Brown (53:56.002)

So Katie, in any good story the hero encounters setbacks? We all know that moment in the film just before the end where it all goes horribly wrong and you’re thinking no! So in terms of your story what’s the biggest challenge you’ve had to overcome in your career?

Katey (54:07.371)

you

Katey (54:16.142)

think it’s probably juggling motherhood with being a female in the police. The guilt has been pretty hard to deal with. My job takes me away a lot. I travel a lot and I always sort of joke and say my husband makes a great wife because he’s a great mother because he’s just always been the one that…

that is here for them. And so I’ve always had that sort of inner guilt. And I think that’s probably the biggest sort of thing for me. I mean, I remember, because you do, remember sort of the bad mother moments, don’t you? And one of those for me was when I was an inspector on a response team in South London. So I was in charge of the shift and

it came out over the radio that my son had been kidnapped. And what I knew had happened is that my mum was supposed to be, no, my father-in-law had traveled, that was visiting and I’d arranged for him to collect Josh. So I’ve got twins who are 16 now, but they were what, seven at the time maybe. And

there’d been a mix-up in the collection. So mum had collected Nell and Josh, so both twins, rather than leaving one for grandpa. Don’t even ask me why we were doing it that way. I can’t remember. All I remember is the fact that when grandpa arrives at the school and his background is social work, he sent the balloon up because Josh wasn’t there. He had all the school being searched. And when Josh couldn’t be found, he said, well, you’ve got to ring the police.

So it came out as a 999 call to Josh Martin has been kidnapped from Hayes Primary School. And I couldn’t get in on the radio to say cancel, cancel, this is, is by itself because everyone was just assigning themselves to the call because it’s obviously, you know, a child being taken. It’s like, you know, everyone’s assigning themselves. Yeah. Every unit’s on the airwaves and I’m bleep, bleep trying to get in, couldn’t get in.

Victoria Brown (56:27.169)

Yeah.

Katey (56:34.646)

eventually got in and had to sort of say, yes, the governor here and cancel the loss, that’s my son. And the roar that went up over the radio was just hilarious. Everyone was like, that’s ridiculous. But yeah, it is that whole, my goodness, I’m just such a bad mother. My son is actually, you know, and the other one that sticks in my mind is

The headmaster rang my husband saying, Nell, the other twin, has been stopped trying to escape from school. She must have been about seven, I think, at the time or six. And she had a map and everything. They’d caught her and another little boy trying to escape and had drawn this map. So of course, the first thing Ian said was, well, have you still got the map? And the headmaster said,

Mr. Martin, I don’t think you’re taking this very seriously. We take safeguarding really seriously. But when she, when I picked her up that afternoon, I was like, what were you thinking of? And she said, well, I just wanted to get out of the school. And I said, well, if you’d have got out of the school and let’s say, for example, that you are out in the street and a van comes along and tries to drag you in, what would you have done?

And without a heartbeat, she went, I’d have kicked him in the peanuts and stolen his phone. And I think it’s at that moment where I thought, dear. And I said to her, kicking in the peanuts, great, just don’t steal the phone, that’s robbery. Yeah. But I don’t know. You’re always hard on yourself as a woman, I think. And being a mum in…

Victoria Brown (58:10.605)

you

Katey (58:27.662)

this job is hard. You know, there’s been so many times where I’ve missed really key parts of what to me were key parts. You know, school assemblies where everyone’s there and their last ever assembly at primary school, was such a big deal. And all the other mums are like, yeah, this is such a big deal. Yeah, it is. I was on call and I said, please don’t get a call out, please don’t get a call out. And I was on call for kidnap.

which means that I’m the only one in London that’s covering that as a negotiator. So it’s not like someone else can deploy. And literally I’m driving towards the school and my phone goes and I couldn’t make it because I had this call out. But I’d got, no, that was it. I’d got to the school gate and I was in this huge van. I was in the huge unmarked police van and it couldn’t sit on the road where everyone was parked because it was like crazy. All the school mums.

part there. But I had to be near the fan because of being on call. So I buzzed the buzzer to the school and said, look, I’m on call. I hate showing out, but I’m on call. I need to be at this assembly. I have to be near my work fan. And they said, no, was like, no, sorry, we’re not letting you into park in the school. And I was like, this is negotiation of my life and I’m failing here. Anyway, the dragon that was on the school desk at that point was not having any of it.

And I remember having to reverse this damn van up this country lane with all these like four by fours parked everywhere. By the time I’d parked it and got back to the assembly, it was wrapping up and I just remember seeing them all file out as I flew into the hall like sweaty mess and…

I just burst into tears because I felt so guilty. Someone came up to me and said, you all right? That was the worst thing they could say. I just went, wah! Headmaster came over and said, what’s wrong? And I said, I’ve missed the twins last assembly. I’m on call. I couldn’t part. And he felt so bad. This sobbing mess of a woman who’s supposed to be like this, you know, big, on call negotiators there in the hall, just like crying into his.

Katey (01:00:51.296)

into his expensive suit. And he said, well, we’re doing another showing at lunchtime. It’s just for the staff, but you can come back for that. And I was like, thank you so much. Came back at lunchtime and my phone went as I was getting at the game and I had to go. So I hadn’t even got in. So I was thinking the whole way to the call out and driving there on blue lights, thinking he’s going to think I’m so rude. He’s going to think what a rude, rude woman.

I gave her this invite to this exclusive showing and she hasn’t even showed up. So I had to write an email to him saying, I’m really sorry I didn’t get there. But it was like the whole thing was missed. And that feels like there’s been quite a few times where that’s happened. So yeah, that maternal guilt and missing out on key things that the kids have done has always been hard.

Victoria Brown (01:01:45.035)

Yeah, that’s hard. Do you think that’s hardwired in us? Because I can’t imagine. I know that men would feel, you know, they wouldn’t enjoy missing those kind of moments, but I’m not sure they would feel that level of guilt that women sometimes feel.

Katey (01:01:59.418)

lot of men are quite pleased not to have to go to those moments. You look around the hall and there’s definitely more mums in there with their iPads filming it, it always makes me laugh. Yeah, I mean, I’m not taking away anything from, you know, sort of men who are very much in their children’s lives and also miss out on key things because of work. But I don’t know, I think when your kids avoid

Victoria Brown (01:02:02.561)

Penny.

Victoria Brown (01:02:09.611)

Mm-hmm

Katey (01:02:28.15)

you like where the side of our bed, mine’s nearest the door, my side, his and her side, always the way, isn’t it? Mine’s nearest the door. But since they’ve been young, they go, they come in the door and they go round the bed to my husband. And it’s always been like, why your mother’s there? She’s there. But you see, you kind of think, yeah, I don’t know. It’s, it’s a tough, it’s a tough one. But

Victoria Brown (01:02:54.925)

You

Katey (01:02:58.274)

Yeah, I remember in lockdown, I’d spent the year before, I’d probably been away from home, sort of traveling around and doing bits and pieces for quite some months. so I loved lockdown, but it was almost like, hi, I’m your mom. I’m mommy. Hey. So, yeah.

Victoria Brown (01:03:20.257)

Yeah, I quite like that aspect of not being expected to go anywhere. In some ways it was quite liberating.

Katey (01:03:25.576)

yeah, I thought it was, yeah. And weirdly enough, our calls to service went down in lockdown. Yeah, crisis calls went down.

Victoria Brown (01:03:36.301)

interesting. So a key part of a story is the vision of where you want to get to and you know, I know about rainbow in the distance. You’ve already done a lot and you’ve achieved so much but what’s your vision of where you want to get to and who you want to be?

Katey (01:03:59.886)

Good question. I almost wish I had a really good answer for that and I just don’t because it’s a really key year for me actually this year because we do, know, those of us that are sort the older versions do 30 years service still and I come up to my 30 years next year. So I’m in my final year of being in the police and I think that

with that comes a huge amount of fear because it is, you know, you are institutionalized to a degree, but also with it comes a huge amount of excitement because I’m really itching to actually to get out into the big wide world and just hopefully continue to train communication and

Suicide First Aid training is a really big passion of mine and I really believe strongly in that and the experiences that I’ve had I’d like to sort of use to continue to enhance that training. So I’d like to do much more of that. At the moment we just deliver in policing with a colleague, we deliver all across the UK to police officers and

It really is life changing stuff. know, people go on a journey of thinking it’s going to be a really, really heavy topic. And of course it is, but if you use storytelling, it can really lighten the load. And it’s so important, the mental health side of what we teach. it’s not, it shouldn’t ever be seen as a taboo talking about suicide and also…

you know, so normal to have thoughts of suicide. And yet as a society, we don’t normalize it. We send the balloon up, but one in 20 of us at any time are having dark thoughts. if we can train people that it’s normal and that we should be able to talk about it, we should be able to say, you know, I’m not feeling too good today, then we’d save a load of lives. So I really believe in that.

Katey (01:06:19.776)

I know that I couldn’t train anything I don’t feel passionate about. There’s too much good stuff to train about, even just active listening. It’s huge.

Victoria Brown (01:06:32.673)

makes such a difference. just think I open the newspapers and I look at the news and I think how different would the world be if we all practiced active listening every day.

Katey (01:06:43.866)

definitely, definitely. I tell my husband that all the time. You’re passive listening. He’s a great passive listener. Poor sod.

Victoria Brown (01:06:53.663)

It was so different. had no walls. was amazing.

Katey (01:06:57.887)

I know. I know. Wouldn’t it just?

Victoria Brown (01:07:03.046)

Well, thank you so much for your time, Katie. I’ve absolutely loved hearing your stories and that image of a snake jumping towards Nelson Mandela will never ever leave me. So thank you for that. If anybody wants to find out more about what you do and catch up with you, where can they find you?

Katey (01:07:11.479)

Ha ha ha.

Katey (01:07:18.251)

Hmm.

Katey (01:07:28.11)

I guess LinkedIn is probably the best way to find me. I’m not too good at LinkedIn. I’m not going to lie. This is like, I’ve literally been a child of policing for so long that I’m having to now sort of learn how to, how to stop sort of, you know, being, being out there. So yeah, I’m, I’m on LinkedIn and there’s Katie Martin and yeah, reach out. In fact,

Victoria Brown (01:07:41.837)

you

Katey (01:07:56.712)

meeting all those wonderful women at that event in Solihull was just incredible. It’s been so nice to connect with people outside of policing who, and particularly that whole female ethos, which is what I’m really passionate about, is how we can teach our girls to be more able to cope in life.

So just having those contacts has been great. My goodness, there were some amazing women in that room, So, yeah.

Victoria Brown (01:08:34.871)

Yeah, it’s amazing. Thank you very much, Katie.

Katey (01:08:40.142)

Thank you.