Victoria Brown (00:02.362)

Hi Angela, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I was so excited for you to come on and share your story. I think we met, gosh was it six months ago at an event in Birmingham, and it struck me how passionate you were about the small business community and how helpful you were to everyone around you. I just think it’s…

indicative, we were talking a bit earlier about the small business community and how helpful and supportive they are and I think you’re a great example of that so I’m really excited to speak to you on the podcast. So of course we’re talking about storytelling today so first of all can you tell us what your origin story is, what you do now and how what you did in the past led to that?

Ange (00:52.206)

Thank you, Victoria. And thank you for having me. Honestly, was when I got the email from you you’re going to have me on. was so excited. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And I love your podcast. So thank you. I’ve been listening to it. So thanks for having me. My origin story was that I grew up in East London and I’m still an Eastender. I’m still in East London. And my origin story from studying design at Central St. Martin’s. I actually studied product design and then.

later on through various careers that I wanted to do graphic design. So that’s kind where I’ve designed backgrounds come from.

Victoria Brown (01:26.724)

Was it always graphic design for you? So when you were little, Ange, it, was it all, were you obsessed with graphic design or where did that come from?

Ange (01:30.51)

Hmm

Ange (01:37.19)

It’s funny because I think also when I was little, I always always look around, I know we all look around, but we take in detail what’s around us. And I was always been the one like walking on the street and looking up, looking at the architecture, maybe looking at what, honestly this is madness, but looking at how the parks were laid out in the park, like saying what I needed to look at certain things. And that was like not just graphic, that wasn’t graphic design obviously, but that was more so think product design. And then when I actually went to, I did a course.

before I’d be tech before going to uni and even before that I did A levels and my A levels just went terrible they were absolutely terrible and it was so that is part of my origin story because I wanted to do A level art and then when I am I loved art and I’d always like little edge drawing wanting to study art I’d always like got really good GCSE grades I’m sorry right I’m gonna do A level art this is gonna be me and then I got to A levels in college and

I was just like set free. I’d have been to an all girls Catholic school. So I’d ended up in this college and it was just like, you know, mixed and like there was bias, there was like fun, there was parties and I was like, did not go to any classes.

Victoria Brown (02:38.867)

Hahaha!

Ange (02:48.974)

I ended up in the common room a lot and my teacher said to me, what are you doing? Like, why are you not coming to class? You’re obviously good at this, you’ve got talent. Why are you not using it? And I just kind of went, I don’t know, miss kind of being. And she said, look, here’s a list of courses, go and try this out. And that was the best thing she did ever. And that was when I did different disciplines in art and design. So then I learned about graphic design, product design, fine art, ceramics. I love ceramics. And then from there,

thought I actually liked making things so I chose a product design degree and that’s when I went to Central Saint Martin so that’s where I’ve always had an interest in design and I’ve always you know I’m in London so can imagine there’s so many things on my doorstep that I can go and visit museums or just even you know local art and yeah it’s just it’s always been around and it still is yeah it’s everywhere.

Victoria Brown (03:41.134)

Yeah, it’s, firstly, I can relate to the girl school thing because I went to a girl school as well. Not the Catholic one, but a girl school. by the end, I think everyone was so like, my God, my God, I’m going to go out here. Going a bit crazy. Yeah, it was was an experience. And I went to a sixth form that was mixed and then it was like, what a boy sitting next to me. This is weird. It’s really weird. So.

Ange (03:53.098)

Libya, Libya.

Ange (04:05.373)

Yeah, yeah. And that was like, you you just, and you also like, because I think the cap of the girls school too, just like knocked down my sister, I grew up with my sister. So a lot of that had been just all girls. Like when you meet somebody like a guy, you’re just like, there’s boys. I mean, obviously, know, they’re just friends, but it’s just like, how do I talk to you? Like, So you’ve got to learn how to do all that.

Victoria Brown (04:15.151)

Yes.

Victoria Brown (04:21.712)

Yeah, yeah, same, because I’ve got a sister. Yeah, I’ve got a sister, so I had the same. was like, I’ve got loads of aunts. So was all like women. And then all of a sudden, there were some men, which is weird because I’ve actually got two boys now. So that was a whole adjustment. Yeah, that was really weird. I was like, what do I do with this boy? But yeah, we’re all right now. So yeah, I think sometimes, you you talked about, you know, not your GCSE is not going well in the other subjects. I said sometimes that can be a huge.

Ange (04:31.372)

Yeah. Have you? Yeah.

Victoria Brown (04:51.492)

gift because I think I struggled with being a bit of an all-rounder. didn’t really know what my path was and I think when you won’t know what that thing is, did that really help you? No, obviously that your thing was art and visualization and all that stuff.

Ange (05:04.918)

Yeah, it’s interesting because again part of my origin story is my parents, they’re West Indian and they came over just in the Windrush generation and I think a lot of that generation always wanted their children to be you know quite academic or be a doctor or a lawyer or you know that type of you’re going to do this and then I said to my mum you know I don’t I don’t I actually do an A level law too and I hated it.

And I just couldn’t get down to anything like that. So I just said, I know I’ve always wanted to do art and I just went for it in the end and I just said, I’m going to do this. So yeah, I kind of, kind of went against my mum’s lesson, I suppose. But it was one of those things where you know it’s inside you and you want to do it, but you don’t know exactly what you want to do in that, in that discipline. Cause you know, there’s so many areas you could go into and yeah. And also my mum again, part being part of my origin story, was…

She was also my mum and my dad because my dad passed away when I was 15. so I had to like, I don’t know, there was something in me that wanted me to work extra hard for her. Just to make sure that I could prove that I could do it. I didn’t want to be unemployable somewhere down the line, but I didn’t know how art was going to do this for me. But it’s just one of those things where you just keep on going and just think, even now in business, just keep on going to the next step and see what’s going to happen next. yeah, luckily it worked out.

Victoria Brown (06:26.894)

Yeah, I know. But you know what, if it hadn’t, I think you’d have found your path somewhere else. Because I think, yeah. Yeah, if you just follow that gut instinct and what’s in you, you can’t really go wrong. So did you all, how did your mom take that at the time when you said, I’m going to go do art?

Ange (06:34.72)

Yeah, we always, think.

Ange (06:48.675)

She wasn’t very happy about that, especially, I was quite lucky actually, when I started my, or Balashla’s day, when I first started doing the art part of it, the degrees were still, you didn’t have to pay for them. So I think I was just second from last of that cohort of…

academic year they didn’t have to pay for it. So it was kind of like well I’m just gonna try it mum you know you don’t need to worry about this. I had a Saturday job I’ve always worked I’ve worked since I was 14 so I’ve always had this drive in me I’ve got to be earning money somewhere down the line. So yeah I just did it went for it and she was very let’s say she’s very proud now. I still don’t think she knows what I do but I think at one point she thought I was a fashion designer and I’m actually a graphic designer. But you know she’s seen me she’s seen me

Victoria Brown (07:31.171)

Fair enough.

Ange (07:33.548)

raise my kids, you know, I’ve got a husband and got a house and you know, we’re doing, you know, doing the things that families do to keep together. And I think she’s proud of us for that. yeah, she can see that I’m happy. Yeah.

Victoria Brown (07:41.744)

Yeah, and you’re Yeah, amazing. So well done to you for following your heart and your gut instincts on that. So do you feel that your roots, you talked about where your family come from, do you think that that has inspired your work or influenced you in any way?

Ange (07:52.277)

thank you.

Ange (08:08.664)

When it comes to projects and clients, I don’t know if it’s influenced me, but it’s influenced me to try things and go and get things. I mean, I have been, when I first started, when I graduated and I want to start looking for work, I’d go into certain places and start interviews and I literally was like, looked up and down like.

Who are you kind of thing? What are you doing here? Like, and I do think that was down to the colour of my skin and also being female, especially in the product design industry. And there was a point where I just thought, I don’t think I want to do product design anymore, even though I’d studied it for three years and I was loving making things. make furniture, know, lamps, all sorts of things around product design, but it was just, I just wasn’t loving it and I couldn’t get a job in it. So that’s when I kind of just thought,

I need to find something else that I like. But luckily love Habitat, I made a piece of furniture for my final year show. And I don’t know if you know the Business Design Centre in Islington. They do final year, they call, I think it’s all new designers. And they go around colleges and unis and they pick up a piece of…

it could be illustration ceramics, but they pick up something from each college in uni and they chose mine and I got a piece of cabinet, I got my cabinet featured there and Habitat came in and saw it and they said would you like to come and work for us and I was like my god I’ve made it but I didn’t because I was just covering for someone on maternity leave at a reception so but anyway I got my foot on the door got my foot in that door yeah yeah yeah and

Victoria Brown (09:34.624)

all it takes sometimes. Sometimes you’ve just got to know the people in there and then that’s where the opportunities come from. So did anything happen after that?

Ange (09:41.518)

Well, the best thing was, I worked there one summer, doing the covering for this lady that was on maternity leave, and there was a guy sitting in the back of the studio in Habitat, and he was the graphic designer, and he had his little square Mac, and he was doing his thing. And he used to say, come and sit with me. So we sit with him. I’m looking at what he’s doing. I’m like, this is actually quite cool. And he’s like, why don’t you try it? And so I took an evening class. So it’s one evening, a couple of evenings and a couple of days during the week. And…

the most amazing, do you know what, things happen like, you know, it’s just like a chain of events. And when I did that, I took that course and then another company, a local company came in and said they wanted a graphic designer on that course, but it’s work for free, but they needed an extra pair of hands in their studio and I applied and I got it. And.

Honestly, there were so many people on my journey, in my story, I always want to give thanks to because if it wasn’t for them, I wouldn’t have done that. If it wasn’t for them, I wouldn’t have done that. And because I worked in this studio, I won’t even call it studio, it was like this kind of warehouse. So there was a printer downstairs and I was working on a tractor magazine. And that’s where I of got my love of magazines from, I think, working in them, because I started producing a tractor magazine and I’d have to do cutouts of tractors.

Day in, day out.

Victoria Brown (11:03.405)

But you know what, that’s a great training ground isn’t it, because you can manage to make tractors interesting. I’m sure tractors are massively interesting to some people, but maybe more of a challenge to make a tractor look interesting.

Ange (11:14.229)

It was literally just like a resale magazine for farmers. But it’s still a product. was still somebody was going to buy that somewhere and was interested in it. yeah, it’s useful. That’s why I say design is everywhere.

Victoria Brown (11:24.714)

Useful, great, amazing.

Victoria Brown (11:29.742)

I think it’s so interesting that you said there’s like specific people in your story that have helped you and they might not be still in your life. They might not have been at the time. You might not have realized how important they were, but it just took them to do one thing and it kind of set your path on the way. And when you look back, can you now see who those people are? You talked about the teacher, you talked about the guy doing graphic design. Are there others?

Ange (11:43.918)

Mm.

Ange (11:53.457)

Yeah, so how else have we got? So my A-level teacher, the one that told me to leave and go and…

find the BTEC. I’ve also got, I’d also say friends, friends along that path because I could, this doesn’t sound terrible, there are some friends that I absolutely love and they’re still friends today but they were going down a different route where I just thought I want to stay focused, not judging them anyway but I just want to do this, I want to get this, make sure, I don’t know, think at the back of my mind always wanting to make sure my mum was always proud and when people say who’s your role model, there’s no one famous, it’s my mum, I know that she worked hard and she kept on going. Other people,

So hang on let’s think about this in, so it’s A levels and then there was

the Habitat and then there was Florence at the Traktor magazine and then from there I would say there were people at Wardour, that company that I mentioned, Wardour Publishing, their contract publishers and in there there’s a good set of friends that I still keep in contact with. I mean we’ve been away on weekends together, it’s just you know it’s a group of us girls, we love it. I love them sorry and I think they’ve also inspired me to keep going because they’re all professionals and then from there I’d say

weird there’s printers that’s it printers are amazing so because I’ve done graphic design throughout all these years I’ve been in touch with printers and somebody put me in touch with a printer and that printer put me in touch with Sophie Cross and Sophie Cross is the editor of freelance magazine and but before that before freelance magazine came out we were friends but working on a other hotel title some hotel magazines and I’d say from Sophie she has also been one of those people that have pushed me in direction, not verbally, but on the outside, just something I said, you know, I know you can do this kind of thing and like, why don’t you just do this or I’m to put you in touch with this person. And then from there it’s moved on. And then I’ve met the most amazing people, which is really weird for social media. And I had banned my kids from using social media for ages. And I was like, I’m not going on Instagram. I’m not going on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is just for people looking for jobs.

And I could tell you I’ve met the most amazing people on LinkedIn and they have become really good friends, including Gus from the meetup in Birmingham. And there’s some friends now that have really inspired me. And if I can name them, that’s OK. Melanie Barfield, she’s a copywriter. She’s got a podcast and she’s also a speaker. And Molly.

She’s web designer and those two ladies have encouraged me to speak, to speak more and speak at events. And again, it’s part of the story and it’s also telling my story and just keep on going. I don’t know who that next person is going to be. It’s just been amazing that throughout my professional career, I’d say definitely people have just…

It’s been that next step, that next step. it’s depending on who I meet. They’ve just like pushed me in a direction, but not literally pushed me, but like open doors or open my eyes to see something else. And yeah, those two ladies, Molly and Mel, they’ve helped me speak at events, which I did a couple of weeks ago in Edinburgh, the International Magazine Center. And I was up on stage talking about my freelancing journey and also being a woman of color in the industry. So yeah, it’s…

and

Ange (15:25.046)

Yeah, so and also this year I judged, I helped judge the Digital Women Awards and I was up on stage and I had to announce one of the awards. So I was like, my gosh, this is like really me. And it was really weird. There was one point actually in Edinburgh when I did the talk at the International Magazine Centre, it was like an auditorium. I think it’s like a mission, but there was like lots of rounded seats. And I swear to I thought I saw old Angela up there looking down on me, like going, or young Angela looking down on me going, well done girl.

Like you’ve actually spoken, like you’ve actually opened your mouth and spoken, not got nervous about this. Because I was, thought I was going be really nervous and I wasn’t, it was really weird. yeah, it was just, but yeah, I think it’s just, and yeah, again, Mel helped me do a bit of work beforehand and prep me to talk beforehand. So I think, yeah, I think those people have just helped me along and yeah, the, along my.

business journey too, so yeah. As well as personal, I’d say, definitely. I’ve just had a long monologue, sorry.

Victoria Brown (16:26.858)

those connections? No, that’s amazing. I was like, you go, you’re on a flow. I think I think those connections are so important. And I think it’s really interesting what you said about social media, because I think we do blame the platform when we talk about the media has been like evil, but but surely it’s the people using it. And if you’ve got a good community that we’re connected to, as long as the algorithm lets us see them, then another thing, but as long as that exists, I mean,

Ange (16:51.251)

Mm-hmm. Well, yeah, that’ll go.

Victoria Brown (16:56.888)

we can meet some great people on those platforms.

Ange (16:59.264)

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Another lady also actually was…

I have to thank and also inspired my story was Ella Ohr. don’t know if you know Ella. I think you might have met Ella. And when I first started working with Sophie on freelance and magazine, Sophie had put a post out on I think it was LinkedIn or Instagram, one or the other. And I just noticed my phone. I didn’t even know I had notifications on my phone. My phone was like, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. I was like, what is this? Who are these people? Like everyone was like trying to, you know, say well done, connect with me. And then I just started chatting to a few people. And honestly, those people have just

said have become friends now and Ella also said and you need to like speak a bit more like even if it’s not like your voice that I’d always hide behind like a nice little graphic on a square tile and I was like no no one wants to see me no one needs to see me. Yesterday I was on Instagram I posted a story of me in the gym I mean come on look how far I’ve come.

funny but yeah social media is a funny one.

Victoria Brown (17:55.821)

So yeah, it’s so easy isn’t it when you’re, think especially when you work for yourself you think no one cares about me, I’m not interesting and it’s so easy to hide away and I think you’ve got to get yourself out there and connect with people because you won’t achieve anything unless you do and I think the marketing meetup is also when Gussie’s group in Birmingham, great examples of that of just getting people together.

Ange (18:15.554)

Yeah.

Victoria Brown (18:22.948)

support each other.

Ange (18:24.847)

I think it definitely is and I think also people can feel intimidated by big groups or getting to know people in smaller groups even and I even somebody DM me yesterday saying I really want to come because I co-host freelance magazine and I was also advertising for being freelance co-host and co-working so we all online and we’re working together.

And this person said, I just don’t know if I can do this. can’t. I don’t want to do this. I said, look, if you don’t feel comfortable, you can always leave. But if you want to come in and say hi, I can make you feel welcome. And it’s the same as in-person events. I don’t know about you, but I think some there are some people, if you met some people that just don’t do networking. But I know there are some groups that focus actually on just having a smaller group. And I don’t know if you’ve heard of the anti-socialites. They’re a really nice group. And they do.

Victoria Brown (19:13.966)

No.

Ange (19:18.126)

business networking but they’ll tie in a little bit of a fun thing into it so you can still work and then it’ll just be like maybe playing some board games and Jenga. I went to one of theirs and it was in Brixton and it was not so good for midway there was a rum.

refinery next door and was like this is interesting good job I don’t like rub but anyway but that was quite nice because it was a really really small group there’s only about five of us but they asked me to come along and I said yeah I’ll come and support you so it’s just I think that’s also to be important to be aware of that there are some people that don’t like big networking groups even though I like networking I like going out and I like meeting people but I just think sometimes you just have to like

Victoria Brown (19:52.709)

Mm-mm.

Ange (20:00.876)

take a step back and just think about other people around you, see how they’re feeling and if there’s a person standing by themselves, what I do normally, I normally say to them, are you okay? And then I say yes and I said, do you want company or do you want to be by yourself? they, know, either way it’s cool, I’m fine. My husband says I talk to too many people.

And this again, this was not me as when I was little. I talked to people that bust off, I talked to people that trade. And when I was younger, I was so shy. was like, I’m not talking to anyone. I’m just going to stand here. Why am I in business? But I think that’s another thing. I think maybe because of that, I want to make people feel welcome wherever I am.

Victoria Brown (20:37.616)

Yeah, and I think you’re obviously safe and happy where you are in life. So therefore you, you know, you’ll feel comfortable talking to other people.

Ange (20:48.051)

I mean don’t get me wrong there are moments when you just think this isn’t really me I might really like doing this like starting my broadcast so that is one thing yeah that’s one thing that I nearly just said this I woke up on Monday said right I’m not doing it anymore not doing it I just can’t who wants to listen to this and then somebody said you should do it you know you’ve got to definitely do it actually quite a few people have said that

Victoria Brown (20:48.4)

Yeah.

Victoria Brown (20:57.026)

Yeah, exciting.

Victoria Brown (21:16.664)

Yeah, we all have those voices and I think when people see you online they’ll probably think, know, Angie’s so confident, know, nothing ever stops her. So I think for you to say that makes them think, everyone feels like that, even if it looks like online sometimes that they’re confident and they’re happy, you know, happy and everyone, you are confident and happy, but everyone has those doubts sometimes and those, that little self-critic, inner critic.

Ange (21:39.861)

Especially as you said, people see images and images are really important. Especially today, people see it either on the TV or online or wherever and people just assume something straight away, whereas they don’t know the story behind that image or they don’t know the words behind that image. It’s quite interesting. think that’s, yeah, it’s just…

Yeah, when people judge it, they do judge an image and sometimes you shouldn’t maybe do that because like you haven’t got the real story behind it.

Victoria Brown (22:10.446)

Yeah, it’s really hard, isn’t it? And I think for you as a graphic designer, that must be really tricky because you’ve got to encapsulate that story. mean, imagine a logo, for example, so in the case of logos or a website, you’ve got to encapsulate the whole story within that. So how do you go about that?

Ange (22:29.574)

First off, definitely whoever’s given me the project or I talk to them and it is the words. I have to find out who they are, what they’re about, if they have got any brand values in place. That’s really important, what they stand for.

I think we’ll take it from there really because I need to have the words first. need to have anything with words first, find them about what they’re about and then go into the design and then also ask them what they like, what they don’t like, how does that fit into, again, what their value is in their branding. And if they’re saying to me, I need a brand from scratch, I’m like, great, this is my best part, my best project because I can really get in there and just find out what they’re about and design something unique for them. So, yeah, I mean, even last night I was talking to somebody and they’ve got property business and I was thinking how can we make it look like a property business but not making it look obviously like a property business so it’s you know those what I like those challenges so again just playing with them ideas

Victoria Brown (23:26.256)

yeah be the purple cow is that what you’re talking be in the purple cow Seth Godin’s book so you want to be property and be respected but at the same time you want to stand out yeah have you read that yeah it’s all about so it’s really interesting so Seth says if you have if you’re a cow and you want to stand out from the other cows you don’t want to be a pig because people the people coming to buy cows don’t want don’t want pigs they want cows but

Ange (23:35.574)

Yeah, yeah. No, I need to get that.

Victoria Brown (23:54.384)

don’t want to be the same as all the other cows because then you’re going to stand out so you need to be the purple cow and actually I was just in I just had an email from Atomic on this morning and they were saying how their whole brand strategy was built on this purple cow kind of concept so it’s really interesting yeah so yes it does it that’s yeah amazing isn’t it wow that’s so good imagine imagine their story I have to get them on the podcast

Ange (24:09.608)

nice interesting Seth Godin is gonna be at Atomicon I’m very much looking forward to that yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah you should definitely hello adrienne beads this is a call out

Victoria Brown (24:28.106)

I don’t know they’re probably too big now they’ve got Seth Godin and all these other people.

Ange (24:32.426)

Listen, Victoria, you are the Victoria Brown, okay?

Victoria Brown (24:36.304)

That’s true. So, I think actually it was really interesting what you said there about images, that words come first, because I think so many people jump to, want a logo, I want the image and don’t realise that the words are behind the image.

Ange (24:59.788)

And also it goes, I think, all around, like even with whatever else I desire, say from magazines, for example, I might not be given the image at all and I might have to go and search that image. So I do need definitely to know what the whole is about. So that’s one of the cases where you have to have the words first, definitely.

Victoria Brown (25:21.872)

So you talked about these big moments where you’ve been speaking and doing these things that you never thought that you would be able to do. Are those your biggest kind of, when you look back, are those the things you’re most proud of? What would be the pinch me moments for you? And if they made a film of your life, what would be like the triumphant, know, don’t know, Rocky standing at top of the title, winning his fight or whatever. What would be your pinch me moment?

Ange (25:47.31)

Do you know what, there’s a few pinch me moments. The funny you mentioned Rocky, that would be one of them because I am, when I was in my, people already graduated, you the finished uni and I went and did, I was one of the late bloomers of Camp America and I was one of the last cohorts of the age group. And I went into Camp America, I went to America and I actually went to Philadelphia and all those steps where Rocky was, I obviously did that pose. But yeah, that was like one of the moments I thought, gosh, I’ve…

come to America by myself. I mean, obviously I’d gone with the cohort of Camp America and they’d be looking after things, but I’d booked the flights. I’d, you know, made plans to travel afterwards. I’d done that by myself and I was quite young still. And I was just like, is this really me? I’m just like, I’m from like East London kind of thing in America. And another pinch me moment, not related to business, but.

America again being in Monument Valley and thinking I feel so tiny again in this world but thinking I’m here and I’m alive and I was very grateful for that and you know thank God for that.

Business wise, I’d say when I won the Digital Women Graphic Designer of the Year Awards, that was in 2022, that was just what? It was so funny because we were in the IV and Tower Hill and that’s where the awards were. There was a few of us at the back of the room and we’re cheering on everybody going, yay, yay. And then we see names come up, go, yay, yay. And then they announced my name and I was like, yay, yay. And they were like, Adjidas you. And I was like,

me so I had to go up and get the award and that was like my gosh I can’t believe that you know but I’d won and it was just one of the most amazing moments and that was I’d won awards before funny enough with Ward or the other company where you know won awards for design work cover of the year you know all that sort of stuff and but that was with a team and like with that team

Ange (27:40.716)

you’re part of that and obviously you take some of that accolade but when you actually get an award by yourself in your own business that’s just amazing to know that you’ve been recognised for that and yeah that was one of my pinch me moments where I feel you know I felt really proud.

my family were proud to it, mean, gosh. And I was just honestly, I was just on a massive high, but also just like still looking down on myself thinking, this is weird, this isn’t really me. And I was just like, and it’s so weird, because like even though I’d been judged and I’ve been awarded it, it was still weird thinking, is this really me? But yeah, I came home and my family were just, you know, celebrating with me the whole weekend and they were loving it. yeah, I really, I felt happy for them, because especially my children seeing that.

to say that you can do whatever you want to do. yeah. Thank you.

Victoria Brown (28:27.28)

Yeah, congratulations, that’s amazing. And since you won the award, you feel that it’s changed your business? Has it changed you? Because I think there’ll be a lot of people out there who may be at applying for awards but don’t know whether it will change their business, whether it will be worth it or why they should do it. Or that they’re not going to win, they think they’re not going to win.

Ange (28:53.43)

Yeah it’s funny because yeah sorry go on sorry

Victoria Brown (28:56.888)

No, carry on. what would you be advice to people that would be thinking of putting themselves up for awards?

Ange (29:02.732)

Awards, you, I’d say, well, first of all, say yes, do it. If you feel comfortable talking about yourself and being a part of a situation where, you know, you’re going to be on the spotlight for a bit. So even if you don’t get, even if you don’t win, you’ll be there as a finalist. So you’ll definitely go for it. It’s funny because I was still in the halfway through writing a blog about it and I’ve been interviewing people about it where some say yay and some say nay.

And it’s also quite sad when you don’t win because it’s kind of like, that horrible feeling where am I not good enough? Am I being judged and I’m still not good enough? But then you are good enough because you put yourself forward. You have the courage to do that. So I think that’s an award in itself. I think people should, yeah, I think it should definitely go for it

Funny thing is, after that award, it hasn’t changed my business massively, but I went to this event and it was run by an insurance company for just women in business. And Harpreet, I don’t know if you remember her from The Apprentice, there, she won that year. She had a dessert business and Alan Sugar invested in her. And somebody asked her the same question. And she said, they said, how have you changed, how has it changed your business? She said, yeah, I’ve got the red carpets, I’ve had this, I’ve had that.

but it’s still me in the office the next day and I’ve still got to make that next sale. And I think that’s what you’ve got to remember if you win the award. It’s like, yeah, you can tell your local newspaper, you can tell, you know, put it on Twitter, put it on X, put it on LinkedIn, tell everybody about it, put it your website. But the next day you still got to go back and you still got to work and you still got to keep on going and think maybe what’s next or I’m quite happy with that, you know, I’ll take that and I’m done or think.

What else should I do? How else am I going to push myself? What else do need to do? And then you have to still do the day-to-day work. So, yeah.

Victoria Brown (30:46.574)

Yes, yeah exactly and I think that’s so true. I love the bit about celebrating just entering, I think that’s just a brilliant mindset to have, you’ve won just by entering and also that, think about going back to the office, Steve Hewitt, was talking about this with Steve Hewitt who was the CEO of Gymshark and kind of turned them into a unicorn with his team and one of his things is you should celebrate your successes and mourn your losses for 24 hours and then move on. So celebrate them, commiserate and it’s gone wrong and then next day you turn up and just get on with it.

Ange (31:18.466)

Yeah, definitely.

Ange (31:24.654)

yeah get back up, get back up if that’s what you want don’t be because no but again especially as you know I’m a business of one nobody else is gonna you know say you know why are you not at work today? I’ll be like it’s me I’ve got to work so yeah commiserate and then just get back up.

Victoria Brown (31:43.652)

Do you think that’s the hardest thing about working for yourself? Because obviously it’s the pros and cons. Is that the hardest thing? Kind of thinking, if no one does it, then no one else does it. I’ve got to do it because there’s no one else to do it.

Ange (31:54.702)

Pretty much. It’s funny, this quarter I’ve just joined a group called Best 90 Days Ever and it’s around marketing and I came up with, I like giving myself little mottos and this one of my mottos was, it’s not going to get done if you don’t do it. So that’s my Q4 motto, so I’m working hard on that.

because sometimes we can procrastinate and we can like just let things slide. also I think in business like I think you’ve got to, I know I thought mood boards were a little, not mood boards, what they called vision boards. I thought they were a bit eerie fairy at one point. was like what’s a vision board kind of thing? I did one this year and I did it early in the summer. I was talking to Jenny Holiday, she’s a business coach. So I’ve been working with her on some branding work.

Yes.

Ange (32:48.206)

She said, I’ll just try it and I did and I love it. I’ve been looking at it every now and and I was like, I’ve done that, I’ve done that. So yeah, it’s good to have a vision board every quarter or have a word or a saying every quarter just to keep you in check and put it up on a wall somewhere.

Victoria Brown (33:06.018)

I completely agree. In fact, I used to do the word thing and I forgot to do that recently. So I am going to go back to the word thing. But if any should say about vision boards, can I get this off the wall? It’s Apologies, people listening on the audio. This is my vision board for this year. I do one every year. And it’s really interesting looking back and seeing how they all change. And so I’m really led by both intuitive. It’s not like a list of things. It’s like, OK, what do I think is aligned with me?

Ange (33:14.87)

Yeah, yeah.

Ange (33:19.867)

excellent, brilliant.

That is really cool. Roll up roll I like that.

yeah.

Victoria Brown (33:34.862)

And so many things kind of come out, it’s so interesting. Like I found out through vision boards that I love stripes. I’m not a massively ordered person, but I really lean to stripes. And this one’s much more pared down than some of other versions. But yeah, I spend a long time like…

Ange (33:46.008)

That’s really nice. That’s a nice mood fold. That’s a nice vision fold. I like the word book too. Are you thinking of writing a book?

Victoria Brown (33:52.984)

Yes, I am saying that some life I am starting to write a book. Yes, I’ve written a book proposal and I know got to do the hard work. But yeah, so I love.

Ange (33:55.874)

Have you started? brilliant, love it.

Ange (34:01.944)

Brilliant, brilliant, I love it. So is that gonna be a new one or an iteration in January or do think you’ll work on a brand new one?

Victoria Brown (34:07.92)

there’ll be a brand new one. yeah, there will be a brand new every year. So I did a workshop in person a couple of years ago and I made one and I I really liked this process every year. So I’ve been doing them. That’s the third one I’ve done. Actually this year was really interesting, but I was not feeling it in January at all. And I thought I’m not feeling this new year thing. And it was interesting. And then it came to February and I felt like I was ready to do it.

And actually, it’s my birthday in February, so I wonder whether it’s because of the start of my year that I felt… Anyway, got a bit woo-woo, but… Yes. Yeah.

Ange (34:38.358)

yeah yeah no it’s good listen i believe in that sort of thing too so it could be that that your mind was just like focusing on your birth on the february start yeah

Victoria Brown (34:48.496)

Yeah, I don’t know, but I just kind of try and lean with it. I always think if something’s not working, just don’t force it because it’s not ready. unless it’s just down to me procrastinating, which is a totally different thing. Sometimes I need to force through on that stuff like the So the book, yeah, is hopefully. Yes. Yeah, I know I will. Yeah, it’s got a title. It’s got a proposal. It’s got everything. won’t say the title now.

Ange (35:01.509)

Yeah

Ange (35:06.209)

Well good luck, good luck. I’ll look out for it. You’re gonna have to tell me about it.

Ange (35:14.1)

I’m afraid I did. No, Yeah.

Victoria Brown (35:15.568)

some suspense but yeah it’s the book is is a vision and it’ll probably be on the vision board again next year but that’s fine it’s getting there very slowly so that’s the main thing small, small steady progress that’s the way. So in terms of so we all have inner stories that I think you’ve touched on it already really but some inner stories that hold us back sometimes. How have you know I suppose how have your inner stories helped you or

Ange (35:23.566)

Pretty good, pretty good.

Brilliant.

Victoria Brown (35:45.37)

held you back at different times.

Ange (35:48.142)

You know what’s funny? Because I think, I know we spoke, when you think about that, I just think I get quite emotional because I always think, When I go back to little Angela at primary school, and one of the things was I wanted to be Annie in a play. And this little girl came up to me and said, you can’t be Annie because you’re black. And I was just like, my God.

my god, my world has like crumbled. I really wanted to be, I mean, I can’t sing, but I wanted to be, you know, I wanted to be part of it. And I was just like, I don’t know, I’m just going to try it. And then I kind of just went into myself and just thought, okay, I can’t do anything because this is like, this is what I am. And that put me down for quite a few years, I think. It’s really weird. And I was only thinking about it the other day when I was talking to somebody else again about public speaking and one of the reasons why I hated it or I never wanted to do it because when I was at Central we always had to critique our work and one of things was I had made this and I hated standing up talking in front of people I just didn’t want to do it I mean it was only a small group, maybe about 10 of us but there was one project in particular and we had to design this a cardboard box that would hold a light bulb and I thought I’d design the and if you put it on a high and dropped it

light bulb wouldn’t break so this cardboard box was structurally engineered and I was like yeah I’ve done my research I’ve done the work I’ve tested it I’m good I’m good and it was like a paper and I was like done the critique didn’t do well on the critique but I I’m gonna sell them gonna win them over when I drop the light bulb and it’s gonna work I the light bulb from a height and the light bulb with the packaging just smashed and I was just like shit and then I was like

Victoria Brown (37:35.162)

Ha ha ha ha.

Ange (37:37.036)

I’m never going to speak again. I hate critiques. I’m never going to be here. And it’s funny when I was at Edinburgh, I swear to God that Angela, that Angela from all those years ago was looking down and we going, ha, you’ve actually taken so many years, but you’re here. And I’m not, it sounds like I’m showing off and bringing myself up, but I’m really not because those things really did put me back. I think they really did put me back. especially being in, you know, you go into certain places and you are the only.

Victoria Brown (37:39.568)

No

Ange (38:07.148)

black person there and or maybe sometimes the only female there but more so the only black person there and I get a little bit annoyed with myself and thinking why am I thinking that straight away because I am just a person I am Angela so that’s that’s who I am but I do get annoyed when I see that but I’m trying not to be like that.

But I do think there need to be other ways to get, how can I say it? I think there should be ways to get people in, especially people of colour in certain businesses and certain events and networking events, business events, getting people up in the boardroom, not just because they’re white and they know someone who’s their mate from, you know, uni or the golf club or something like that. Which is, you know, I think we are.

changing it and stories are changing and people’s stories are changing and there’s a guy called Raphael and he started up the Black Business Week and that’s on next, I know this is time sensitive, but it’s on every October and that’s a whole week long of people in business talking at events and there’s also a day on the Saturday and that’s in Excel and that’s going to be filled with black businesses and I’m just like…

just gonna I’m not exhibiting or anything but I just want to be there and just see you know be part of it so I love so yeah

Victoria Brown (39:36.086)

What do you think what do you think little Ange would would think when she sees that that all these events are going on?

Ange (39:43.758)

She’d be like, this is amazing. I didn’t have this in my day. And you know what? Because it’s amazing with my children too, because they’re just like, in the world they’re growing up now, they’re so blessed to see all this around them, that there’s diversity, there’s people being, you but again, should have every opportunity. Even down to dollies and books, black characters, black characters on TV, that wasn’t really around when I was younger at all.

I looked at documentary the other day, think, forgot his name, I forgot his name. But was about, it also features what the BBC features on their TV, like black and white minstrels, and showing how black people portrayed on TV. And I was just like, or not portrayed, I was just like, wow, I totally forgot, I was growing up watching these programs and didn’t even realize this was going on, you know, it’s just, yeah, it’s interesting. But that’s Little Andrew B, very impressive, what’s going on now.

in that event, but she would like to see more of it, I’d say. Big Ang would like to see more of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s, I mentioned that I’m starting a podcast and that’s one of the reasons why I want to start a podcast and it’s called Creatives Like Us and it’s around interviewing and talking to people of colour who are in the creative industry.

Victoria Brown (40:46.966)

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. think your representation is important. I think we are seeing it more, aren’t we? But yeah, it’s.

Ange (41:10.198)

And it’s really, really, the idea came to me about a couple of years ago and I was like, I don’t know. I’m just, you know, I’m not good enough for this. I don’t want to talk to anyone. But I feel like, again, people in my life and parts of the, you know, stories coming together and saying, you can do this. Why don’t you just try it? There’s no, I think also you said it on your podcast, I’ve got to try it. Just if it tried, it works, you know, just give it a try.

Victoria Brown (41:32.174)

Yeah, just give it a try. Yeah!

Ange (41:35.756)

So yeah, so talking about talking to people that are all industries of creativity from poetry to photography to acting to an author. And then even down to I think one of my things is I like to give back. And I think that’s one of my values. think because I’ve had so many people along the way help me. I really love giving it back or paying it back. And recently I’ve met a young lady, she’s at uni and she’s helping me with the graphics.

podcast and she’s studying graphic design and she came to me and she actually when I told about the podcast she was like when I went to uni when I was looking for uni courses I was looking for people and podcasts honestly she said this like to inspire me and help me along my journey and she couldn’t find any and I was like really? she goes what you’re doing is actually what I was looking for I was like wow so on Monday like when you hear those things you’re like right I better do it then even though I’ve got the trailer ready I’ve got the graphics you know it’s all ready and it’s just like

Victoria Brown (42:25.313)

sign.

Victoria Brown (42:32.587)

Ange (42:33.301)

Victoria Brown (42:35.148)

I know, it’s those in a critic again. It took me two years to first launch my podcast and that was with a background in, a background in broadcasting. So yeah, I don’t know. I’d actually, well, to be fair, pandemic did happen, but I’d actually recorded episodes, decided I was going to do this podcast. And then the pandemic did happen. And then two years later, I still hadn’t launched this podcast and I was just like, this is ridiculous.

Ange (42:39.586)

Really? Well, really?

Wow, why do we hold ourselves back?

Victoria Brown (43:04.654)

And then what got me over the line is I spoke to, I was accountability partner with somebody and they launched their podcast and they got no experience with broadcasting and they just did it. And I was like, this is ridiculous. You know, you know how to do it. Exactly. It was just really inspiring because I thought this is ridiculous. But, know, I felt a shame. I couldn’t put something out in the world and just do it. So I did. then, yeah, that’s how I, it did take me two years.

Ange (43:16.798)

you were like well if they could do it

Ange (43:32.066)

Well done, Well done. That’s fantastic.

Victoria Brown (43:35.229)

So, so yeah, still here just about. So your values and purpose, you talked about your values being, passing it back. And I did definitely think that kindness comes out in your values. You can see it on your testimonials, you can see it when you meet you. And what other values do you think you have within yourself and your business?

Ange (43:38.348)

Yeah, well done.

Ange (44:00.466)

It’s funny because about three years now I actually did a mini brand audit of myself and my business and the words that came up were kind. First one was creative and then kind, approachable and professional and I’ve kind of kept them. I think some people change their values over the years but I haven’t seen any need to. I think that’s who I am and what I’m about so I’ve kept those.

Victoria Brown (44:33.676)

And vision is big part of the story and we talked about that already so forget that question. So finally then, every story has, every hero in every story has a challenge that they have to come through, normally with the help of a trusted

mentor or somebody but sometimes on their own and it’s that moment in the film where you think no it’s just before the end you think it’s all going to go horribly wrong. What has been your biggest challenge in your business or in your life if your life or your business was a film?

Ange (45:22.904)

think it would be the speaking part of it. I think it would be speaking up and that was one of my words this year was visibility. And even though it looks like I’m there, I’m here, I’m like I’m doing this and all that, but I’m not really talking as much and not really telling people much about what I’m doing. I think the hero part of me would be like, I, know, like when you said all that, I was like, had, you know, like the edge of the canyon and like you’re about to like fall off, but you’re standing in front of it, but you look behind you like, those are my people. And like, I know who my,

Victoria Brown (45:49.678)

Yes.

Ange (45:52.801)

people are. Like I know that I’ve got good friends behind me, I’ve got a good family, beautiful family behind me. So the hero would be me just standing there by myself but like saying you have a voice, talk and use it. I’ll tell you one thing, I went to, you can tell I go out a lot, but I don’t really go out, I have to do work, but I went to an event where the lady who I met at another event, I didn’t know she had a stutter and she has a group called Her Voice Up.

And then she was talking through the presentation and she was stuttering and I went and she was like, and she was talking about her stuttering and I was like, what is this? And I was like, not in a bad way, it was just like, I never knew she had a stutter, but it was, she was the one, actually she was another person that made me think you can go and talk, Ange. Like she can do it and she’s inspired you to do it, go and talk. And yeah, I’d say it’s my voice and being heard and.

That’s my hero of my story. It’s Ange talking and being visible.

Victoria Brown (46:51.504)

I love these different angies, these different personas, it’s like it’s a crying place in your head.

Ange (46:56.238)

Yeah, do you know what I do? I have lots of papers and I also have lots of screens and like I’m like idea idea but I try and formulate yeah it’s hard because you know you know it’s like being a business of one you’re also like got so many things going on at the same time. I’m trying to work these out.

Victoria Brown (47:09.584)

I have the same.

Victoria Brown (47:17.248)

It’s like those reels, isn’t it? Have you seen those reels on Instagram where someone puts a different costume on and they’re a different accountant, lawyer, graphic designer, admin? Yes. But that’s the joy. That’s the joy of it, I think, but also the curse.

Ange (47:24.27)

the marketer, HR. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it is. The curse, I think the curse is because sometimes you think, I’m just gonna go and get a job. I’m just gonna get a job. All I have to do is get there, come back, don’t have to think about it. But you just think, nah, I want to work for myself. Yeah.

Victoria Brown (47:46.178)

Yeah, exactly. I think it’s hard. It must be hard to go back. I mean, I think there’s definite times that people might want to go back in employment. But yeah, if you’re enjoying it, then yeah, enjoy what you do. So it always gets me that bit of the film where you kind of can see it coming, can’t you? Am I like, no, but you know, it looks like it’s all going to go.

Ange (48:00.108)

Yeah, yeah, I love that question though, hero, the hero’s question. That’s brilliant.

Victoria Brown (48:14.328)

wrong and you know it’s not gonna go wrong is it? Just trust, just trust. Yes.

Ange (48:15.598)

Yeah, it’s not gonna go wrong. It’s always gonna be alright, just trust. That’s why I said like the canyon bit, I had the picture, I had a vision of this canyon and I’m on the edge, I’m like, no, you’ll be alright, because you’ve got people behind you. You know, I suppose they’re part of my heroes too, because like there’s people around me and my heroes. Like that, if you know what mean. I’m waffling now.

Victoria Brown (48:34.0)

Yeah, yeah, no, amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on and I’ve really enjoyed chatting with you and hopefully everyone will really enjoy, I’m sure, hearing your story. What are you up to next then? Where can people find you?